2017 Group Build Pt. 1: Self Propelled Guns / Panzer 38(t)

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Philipp Gross
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2017 Group Build Pt. 1: Self Propelled Guns / Panzer 38(t)

Post by Philipp Gross »

The vote is over and here are the subjects of our first Group Build for 2017:

1. Self-propelled Artillery/Self-propelled guns

2. Panzer 38(t) and variants


This campaign will run for 6 months from January 1st to June 30th 2017.

We'll have a second GB coming in the second half of 2017 concerning figure vignettes and ARVs/AEVs/Engineer vehicles.

In the meantime, feel free to discuss the subject matter and introduce your plans. :)

Philipp
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Steve Hutchinson
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Re: 2017 Group Build Pt. 1: Self Propelled Guns / Panzer 38(

Post by Steve Hutchinson »

can of worms 1
can of worms 2
Stug III?
Paragraph 3, 1st line
""While the StuG was considered self-propelled artillery,""

So I can build a Stug III?

Steve H
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Raoul Kunz
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Re: 2017 Group Build Pt. 1: Self Propelled Guns / Panzer 38(

Post by Raoul Kunz »

Now that's a good question...

...really without a good answer :lol: .

I, off all people ( :lol: ), would exclude the StuG on the basis of the fact that, even in the earlier L/24 armed variants, it was used in the direct infantry support role against tanks, effectively acting as a tank hunter, later even getting the appropriate gun to successfully engage the later Soviet tanks. To utilize British terminology here for a second: think of it as a cheaper infantry tank deployed by the artillery arm as their means of providing direct fire support to advancing infantry.
However in spite of this attempted definition I'd have to treat a StuH as a SPG... since it alone among the StuGs (hence the different designator), carries a weapon that really is rather unsuited for use in the AT role.
.
..
...
What I mean to say by this is that the StuH is an SPG because, while being the only true StuG in the series, it is not a StuG as defined by actual use...
For the same reason I feel that a SU-76i is a SPG while a SU-85/100 is not, it's a TD...
...
..
.
I feel that I just made it worse :lol: ...


Best regards

Raoul G. Kunz
Ps. I'll be in touch later today Steve
Last edited by Raoul Kunz on 13 Nov 2016, 10:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Steve Hutchinson
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Re: 2017 Group Build Pt. 1: Self Propelled Guns / Panzer 38(

Post by Steve Hutchinson »

Another point, well made Raoul ;)

Perhaps we could have one defining factor to differentiate the self propelled, either artillery or gun.

It can not be closed in.

As such, there are plenty of other options to choose from, even for me!!

Thoughts?

Steve H
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Adam Durrant
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Re: 2017 Group Build Pt. 1: Self Propelled Guns / Panzer 38(

Post by Adam Durrant »

I have an issue with the concept of "not being closed in" as lots of modern artillery (M109 series, Archer etc) are artillery pieces within turrets.

Could I respectfully suggest that the self propelled artillery concept (for the purposes of our GB) be that of a gun (and possibly a rocket, as rockets are artillery) used in an indirect fire support role?

As such my subject for the first part of the group build will be this;

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The AFV Club M109A6 Paladin was in my latest impulse buy, the tracks, Legend stowage set, Voyager PE set and Voyager "bright series" lenses were recently purchased from a mate who had sold his Paladin kit and had these in his stash.

For the second part I'm undecided on the Trumpeter 38t with Eduard PE or the Tamiya mid production Hetzer which is packaged with an Aber PE and barrel set.

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As you may have noticed I have this all a bit too planned out and no plan survives the first contact with my workbench!! :D
I'm a serial kit starter....
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Raoul Kunz
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Re: 2017 Group Build Pt. 1: Self Propelled Guns / Panzer 38(

Post by Raoul Kunz »

You have a point there Adam.

Closed in and open would leaves all the direct fire TDs and tank hunter from the war in the game, and they have their own category ;) .

Of course indirect fire would still leave the L/24 armed StuGs and the StuH in the game because they where meant to engage targets "artilleristisch" ("artillery-like") and they did (ironically having a higher rate of first hit probability than the tank arm that followed a LOS direct fire methodology) just that with stationary targets, albeit still much closer to the action and in direct support of the infantry - a bit like a mortar or pre-1897 field gun, only motorized (ha! that amounts to, wait for it, a SPG! :lol: ).

I'd say L/24 StuG and StuH in, L/43 and L/48 armed StuGs out?

Same with the assorted Waffenträger - it's a overall and ill defined term anyway that amounts to saying "SPG" in 1940s German - so Waffenträger that were intended as cheaper tank hunters in the direct fire role out, the ones that mount artillery weapons for indirect use in?

As for the 38(t)... I have a couple of those lying around - maybe I'll build some of them in a little (...big) dio...something for Barbarossa e.g.... :mrgreen:



Best regards

Raoul G. Kunz
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Chris Smith
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Re: 2017 Group Build Pt. 1: Self Propelled Guns / Panzer 38(

Post by Chris Smith »

I would say any artillery system that can move around under its own power which would include guns, howitzers, rockets, AT and AA. Leaves everything open, particularly a Meng Gepard ;) (which I probably can't afford to buy) :(

Chris
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Philipp Gross
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Re: 2017 Group Build Pt. 1: Self Propelled Guns / Panzer 38(

Post by Philipp Gross »

So...uh......should we just include anything that is capable of indirect fire by design? Since we all know the pictures of Shermans and Pershings on earth ramps working as improvised artillery :?

What about Anti-aircraft systems? Missiles? Since the towed arty GB includes everything, it would only be fair to do the same with SP versions.

Philipp
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Steve Hutchinson
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Re: 2017 Group Build Pt. 1: Self Propelled Guns / Panzer 38(

Post by Steve Hutchinson »

Well made points Adam

the Paladin is going to be a cracker will all the stowage :D

And what a choice for part 2 8-)

I have no idea what I would build, I am casting round for inspiration but seem to be falling short :(

See what the next few weeks brings

We still seem to have a very broad category to work with

What else have any of you got planned?

Steve H
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Chris Smith
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Re: 2017 Group Build Pt. 1: Self Propelled Guns / Panzer 38(

Post by Chris Smith »

I don't think tanks should could count as they are not artillery systems as such,although there was the 105mm Sherman, 95mm fitted to Centaurs, Cromwells and Churchills but they were operated by the tank regiments not the artillery. Not really over convinced about anything with the word Jagd, Jäger or destroyer in the title but hey we want maximum participation so let's keep things open. Missiles are operated by the artillery arm in most armies so I would include them.

Chris
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